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Post by Seattle Steelheads on Feb 22, 2014 22:39:54 GMT -5
I dont remember the last two drafts being this wacky. Hell Buxton was $41. Are there more $ resources this year?
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Post by Pancake Titans on Feb 22, 2014 22:42:45 GMT -5
fewer assets to bid on.
I would have spent more on Gray if i had the $$
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 22:56:57 GMT -5
Last year we decided to make players left on the MLB roster at the roster trimming deadline Minor 1 players. I still think it would have been better to make any such players incur Minor 2 status, that way there would be a real incentive to keep players on your MiLB roster, even those who are expected to lose minor league eligibility in the upcoming season. If there was a greater incentive to keep players on your roster, we wouldn't have so much cash to spread between so few players. My three cents for what it's worth.
I also really like the number of bench slots we have at present, but fewer bench slots would make it more roster-slot prohibitive for someone to promote their entire minor league roster to free up $$$ for the minor league draft.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 23:08:37 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse, but I want to stay on my soap box a little bit longer:
Under the current system, if Player X is expected to lose minor league eligibility in 2014, you are a fool to leave him on your minor league roster because that player is going to cost you a roster slot eventually no matter what. If you promote Player X before the roster-trimming deadline, he is minor 1 and you free up cash for the minor league draft. If you leave Player X down, you lose the money for the minor league draft, and when he loses his eligibility, you have a player that is minor 1 anyway.
Another way to do it: If Player X is promoted before the roster trimming deadline, you (i) free up minor league cap BUT (ii) that player becomes minor 2 (i.e. the player is treated as attaining MLB status in the prior year, and you are essentially penalized a year of minor salary status). Alternatively, if you choose to leave Player B on your minor league roster, you are stuck with that player's minor league cap number but if you promote him AFTER the drafts have ended, Player B is only minor 1.
A lot of people are criticizing Thain, but he is actually the smartest guy in the room right now. He just picked up arguably the top overall offensive player at $100, and next season he can just promote that player at minor 1 and take the top overall minor league player again. Rinse and repeat. If we don't fix the system, then people will make the wise decision to continue to game it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 23:19:38 GMT -5
Here are all the MiLB eligible players that were left on the MLB roster at the roster-trimming deadline:
Vizcaino, Arodys RP CHC minor 1 Stella, Tommy La 2B ATL minor 1 Soler, Jorge RF CHC minor 1 Webster, Allen SP BOS minor 1 Bogaerts, Xander 3B BOS minor 1 Erlin, Robbie SP SD minor 1 Morris, Hunter 1B MIL minor 1 Castellanos, Nick LF DET minor 1 (was $13) Bradley, Jackie CF BOS minor 1 (was $30) Walker, Taijuan SP SEA minor 1 (was $24) Ventura, Yordano SP KC minor 1 (was $21) Davidson, Matt 3B CHW minor 1 Paxton, James SP SEA minor 1 Sano, Miguel 3B MIN minor 1 (was $30-ish) Flores, Wilmer 3B NYM minor 1 Bundy, Dylan RP BAL minor 1 (was $25) Baez, Javier SS CHC minor 1 (was $30-ish) Lee, Hak-Ju SS TB minor 1 (was $7) Buxton, Byron OF MIN minor 1 (was $41) Bradley, Archie SP ARI minor 1 Stephenson, Robert SP CIN minor 1 Syndergaard, Noah SP NYM minor 1 Marisnick, Jake CF MIA minor 1 Polanco, Gregory RF PIT minor 1 Gausman, Kevin RP BAL minor 1 (was $90-ish)
There's your inflation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 23:30:31 GMT -5
Here are the players that were promoted before the roster-trimming deadline in 2013 that still have not attained MLB eligibility:
Skaggs, Tyler SP LAA minor 2 Odorizzi, Jake SP TB minor 2 Hamilton, Billy CF CIN minor 2 Wong, Kolten 2B STL minor 2 Bauer, Trevor SP CLE minor 2 d'Arnaud, Travis C NYM minor 2 Taveras, Oscar CF STL minor 2 Wheeler, Zack SP NYM minor 2 Martinez, Carlos RP STL minor 2
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 23:33:11 GMT -5
Another option is to force a team to carry a players MiLB salary cap figure against their minor league cap irrespective of whether that player is on their MiLB roster. E.g., if you promote Taijuan Walker at $24, he stays minor 1 (24) and counts as both a MLB and MiLB roster slot, and his contract status will never change until he has attained MLB status.
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Post by Seattle Steelheads on Feb 23, 2014 1:36:10 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse, but I want to stay on my soap box a little bit longer: A lot of people are criticizing Thain, but he is actually the smartest guy in the room right now. He just picked up arguably the top overall offensive player at $100, and next season he can just promote that player at minor 1 and take the top overall minor league player again. Rinse and repeat. If we don't fix the system, then people will make the wise decision to continue to game it. First off, I can tell you have been drinking or you are incredibly sleep deprived to throw out that first comment. Take a deep breath and really think about what you said. Now, Thain has taken an approach that is interesting but I do not think the wisest. First off, while I was a bit shocked with his execution, I am actually happy that he and Rough Trade have chosen to spend their wad on two players. Takes their $200 and two owners out of the market. Thain now has now a ton of risk to continue to maintain any kind of farm system and bring up cheap talented players. Example, he has Bundy coming off TJ and Sano supposedly about ready to go under the TJ (which it sounds like he avoided). He only adds one player this year, we all know that the minor leagues are a crap shoot, as you shrink your own talent pool, your odds of success shrink and regardless of how good you think Bryant is going to be, he has risk, can get hurt and that is all Thain and Rough Trade got, one player. Second point, he has no chips when it comes time to make a run at the title. Bryant has no trading value, Thain won't want to part with him for the $ he spent and no one can really hope to bring on Bryant, and not severely screw up their own roster. Perhaps Thain’s theory is he won’t be in the playoff run anyway come July and will part with many of his veterans for some of the minor leaguers and will fill his farm system that way. So, from my point of view, if there are owners out there that want to throw all in on one MIL player, have at it. I think it only significantly enhances ones risk for a future cheap talent pool. Frankly, I think Thain did it because he gets bored with the draft process and likes to finish first
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Post by Seattle Steelheads on Feb 23, 2014 1:36:45 GMT -5
Here are all the MiLB eligible players that were left on the MLB roster at the roster-trimming deadline: Vizcaino, Arodys RP CHC minor 1 Stella, Tommy La 2B ATL minor 1 Soler, Jorge RF CHC minor 1 Webster, Allen SP BOS minor 1 Bogaerts, Xander 3B BOS minor 1 Erlin, Robbie SP SD minor 1 Morris, Hunter 1B MIL minor 1 Castellanos, Nick LF DET minor 1 (was $13) Bradley, Jackie CF BOS minor 1 (was $30) Walker, Taijuan SP SEA minor 1 (was $24) Ventura, Yordano SP KC minor 1 (was $21) Davidson, Matt 3B CHW minor 1 Paxton, James SP SEA minor 1 Sano, Miguel 3B MIN minor 1 (was $30-ish) Flores, Wilmer 3B NYM minor 1 Bundy, Dylan RP BAL minor 1 (was $25) Baez, Javier SS CHC minor 1 (was $30-ish) Lee, Hak-Ju SS TB minor 1 (was $7) Buxton, Byron OF MIN minor 1 (was $41) Bradley, Archie SP ARI minor 1 Stephenson, Robert SP CIN minor 1 Syndergaard, Noah SP NYM minor 1 Marisnick, Jake CF MIA minor 1 Polanco, Gregory RF PIT minor 1 Gausman, Kevin RP BAL minor 1 (was $90-ish) There's your inflation. Cool, thanks Matheson, most of these guys are mine
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Post by South Paws on Feb 23, 2014 1:50:56 GMT -5
I'm not against discussing rule changes with regards to minors, but I'm not sure it's that big of an issue. Many seem to be doing the same thing by clearing out their minor league roster to free up salary and start the MLB salary a year or two early. So that doesn't lend to much of an advantage for anyone. But it can hurt those that end up promoting someone too early as even many studs take a few years to really break out.
Also, while I'm not arguing its a bad strategy, getting Bryant for $100 carries a lot of risk when putting all your eggs into one basket. He's not a surefire all-star. And even if he is, what if it takes longer than expected. Does it tie-up $100 for more than one year on the milb roster or he's put on the MLB roster anyway and he loses out on some of his cheapest years of great production. In a few years its going to be difficult to compete with the teams that have multiple studs at low salaries and if you're going the route of just one of the top prospects each year doesn't leave a lot of room for error. All one needs to do is look back at the top 5 ranked prospects each year for the past 10 years to see the chance of failure.
Some perspective (per Baseball America) 2007 1. Delmon Young OF TAM 2. Alex Gordon 3B KC 3. Homer Bailey P Reds 4. Phil Hughes P NYY 5. Brandon Wood SS LAA
2008 1. Jay Bruce, of, Reds 2. Clay Buchholz, rhp, Red Sox 3. Evan Longoria, 3b, Rays 4. Joba Chamberlain, rhp, Yankees 5. Clayton Kershaw, lhp, Dodgers
2009 1. Matt Wieters, C, Orioles 2. David Price, LHP, Rays 3. Madison Bumgarner, LHP, Giants 4. Pedro Alvarez, 3B, Pirates 5. Travis Snider, OF, Blue Jays
2010 1. Jason Heyward, of, Braves 2. Stephen Strasburg, rhp, Nationals 3. Mike Stanton, of, Marlins 4. Jesus Montero, c, Yankees 5. Brian Matusz, lhp, Orioles
2011 1. Bryce Harper, of, Nationals 2. Mike Trout, of, Angels 3. Jesus Montero, c, Yankees 4. Domonic Brown, of, Phillies 5. Julio Teheran, rhp, Braves
You could have taken the #1 guy from each of those years and it wouldn't make for a great team. Not bad, but only because of Harper.
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Post by South Paws on Feb 23, 2014 1:53:29 GMT -5
Oh man, I'm now agreeing with Eric. What has the world come to???
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Post by Seattle Steelheads on Feb 23, 2014 2:01:27 GMT -5
Oh man, I'm now agreeing with Eric. What has the world come to??? Its not all godspeak. I could make some kind of statement on the Mariners and then every couch surfin GM would come out of the woodwork and tell me how stupid the Mariners were to sign the number one FA in baseball and they only have another 36 days before their strategy for the next 10 years is cemented and they are as screwed as the last 10 years
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 3:48:57 GMT -5
I think we need to eliminate some bench spots. I voted to keep it at 9 when we voted last year but now that we are able to stack our bench with prospects I realize it is going to be a problem going forward and this is something that should be addressed to help remedy the situation.
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Post by Da Big Tuna on Feb 23, 2014 6:17:35 GMT -5
Reduction of bench spots or maybe limit the keepers to 8 or 10
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 7:59:34 GMT -5
Eric makes some good points that I had not considered. I still think the rules creates a bad dynamic with rostering minor league players, and the glut of cash is one consequence of that. It also drives prices up on MLB players by reducing MLB roster slots at $1 per slot. I am happy with this league and think it is managed superbly, but if I could change one thing to fix these issues, I would make it so that a minor league player on your team carries his salary and counts as a roster slot whether or not you choose to keep that player on you MLB roster. The day that player loses MILB eligibility, he is minor 1 and must use a roster slot. That would make it so that there is a hard cap of $1600 in MiLB money to spread between the whole universe of MiLB players. The cap right now is a soft cap, because you can erase a $41 or $100 cap penalty at the cost of one roster slot and perhaps a year or two of contract escalation.
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Post by sadindians on Feb 23, 2014 8:15:38 GMT -5
There's no risk in taking Bryant. If he helps me this year, great. If not, he will only be $1 next year. This isn't the major leagues where they depend on a farm system. Most of our players are acquired in the auction. This is the weakest draft class we've had. There are about 5 players really worth having that might contribute soon. My goal is to win this year and worry about the future later. And next year I will have $100 to spend in the minors auction.
BTW I agree with Matheson mostly. But I think it would be simpler to say you can only keep minors players on the majors roster if they qualify for majors status. I always thought it didn't make sense that we are allowed to "start the clock early".
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Post by sadindians on Feb 23, 2014 8:18:49 GMT -5
But I will add that it would be unfair to change the rule now, since my entire draft strategy depended on the rules that were in place at the time. We would have to grandfather existing players.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 8:21:31 GMT -5
Obviously a change wouldn't take place till next season thain, relax
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Post by sadindians on Feb 23, 2014 8:27:38 GMT -5
I'm saying next year I should be able to keep Bryant for $1 regardless of his eligibility and regardless of rules changes since that was the rule at the time I drafted him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 8:35:10 GMT -5
We could just say that the 2015 roster-trimming deadline is the last time any team will be able to roster any minor league player with minor 1 status. That would solve any problems.
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Post by sadindians on Feb 23, 2014 9:05:32 GMT -5
Yes that would work
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Post by South Paws on Feb 23, 2014 9:54:28 GMT -5
You can't say there is no risk. I see your point, but if Bryant is a bust or takes a longer time to develop into the all-star caliber player you believe, then by the time he is you won't be keeping him at $2 or $3, but he'll already be subject to the $5 salary increase per year.
And then the downside to that strategy is exactly the issue that Orioles is trying to address (whether or not you think its a problem)
Now that this league has a few years under its belt and as it continues to develop, this "issue" will continue to magnify. It's going to become more and more difficult to fill out a MLB club through free agents (at least with top notch players). Whichever team has 5 or 10 really good players on their roster at under $5 is going to have a considerable advantage over those that do not. If you thought the salaries for some of the studs was high now, just wait 2 or 3 more years. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing some salaries that get near $100.
But I'm on board with you about changing the rules. I implemented my strategy a long time ago because I saw this dynamic taking place in the league. I figured that was what was intended and I better figure out how to work with it before I get screwed.
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Post by Seattle Steelheads on Feb 23, 2014 12:14:34 GMT -5
Whichever team has 5 or 10 really good players on their roster at under $5 is going to have a considerable advantage over those that do not. If you thought the salaries for some of the studs was high now, just wait 2 or 3 more years. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing some salaries that get near $100 [/quote]
Your theories conflict. On one hand, you say that the better teams in the future will have 5-10 quality farmsystem talent and then you say wait til we see the draft in a couple years when multiple teams are spending their entire $100 on one player. AGAIN, I want other owners to do this. You cant have your first strategy, by doing the second. Owners spend your wad and I dont have a problem with current minor league spending. It was only 2 teams that decided to spend their $100 on one player and they can bear the risk. The rest of the draft has corrected
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 12:38:08 GMT -5
Thain said we can fight over the scraps... not to toot my own horn but here are the scraps I've drafted over the past two years:
2012 Sonny Gray $3 Josh Donaldson $1 Tyler Thornburg $1 Allen Webster $1 Nate Eovaldi $1
2013 Marcus Stroman $1 Jose Berrios $1 Maikel Franco $1 Stephen Piscotty $1
To each his own
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Post by sadindians on Feb 23, 2014 12:57:52 GMT -5
Those scraps were in drafts that were much deeper, especially 2012 when there was EVERY minor leaguer available. Now there is a handful from last year's MLB draft, and that's it, for the 1097 people have to spend. That averages out to about 50-100 per (useful) player. The fact is, this year's is nowhere near as deep as the past 2 years. Good luck getting a useful player for $1-3 this year.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 13:03:50 GMT -5
Good luck making trade deadline deals with your 1 minor leaguer
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Post by sadindians on Feb 23, 2014 13:32:51 GMT -5
I have more than 1.
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Post by South Paws on Feb 23, 2014 14:15:44 GMT -5
Those scraps were in drafts that were much deeper, especially 2012 when there was EVERY minor leaguer available. Now there is a handful from last year's MLB draft, and that's it, for the 1097 people have to spend. That averages out to about 50-100 per (useful) player. The fact is, this year's is nowhere near as deep as the past 2 years. Good luck getting a useful player for $1-3 this year. Care to bet?
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Post by sadindians on Feb 23, 2014 15:51:06 GMT -5
Sure Chad lets bet. Of all the players you pick for $3 or less in this draft, I'm betting none of them are regular starters in the MLB anytime in 2014 or 2015. How much do you want to wager?
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Post by Seattle Steelheads on Feb 23, 2014 16:06:07 GMT -5
Sure Chad lets bet. Of all the players you pick for $3 or less in this draft, I'm betting none of them are regular starters in the MLB anytime in 2014 or 2015. How much do you want to wager? That's an asinine statement. Our point is that there are tons of minor leaguers that can be bought for $3 or less. Then you change your definition of low cost minor leaguers? Let's review all the players that are won for $3 or less in our draft. I will take that money on a league wide sample.
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